since you are new around here let me just remind you of something that you may not know about some of us:
in addition to this: I am against the loss of a single life be it at the hands of an individual, institution or state
that you have very conveninetly overlooked because it may not sit well with your personal ambitions, agenda or world-view... i have been continuously (and for some friends irritatingly) harping on occupying army
would improve in pakistan till the occupying army
is housed in its proper place...
now, let me explain nothing
pakistan has a myriad of problems...chief among them the following:
* lack of strong, functioning and trustworthy
institutions (that india has been developing since 1947)
* distrust and intolerance of government, institutions, individuals
* absence of accountability
, goodwill and tolerance
* runaway population, lack of services/facilities for the ordinary citizens
some of the above are inter-dependent and overlapping...but you get the picture?...unless pakistan has at the least
an independent judiciary, legislature and civil services (police and other law enforecement agencies):
* no religious minority or sect would feel safe in pakistan
* women would continue to be treated as chattels
* absence of timely and fair legal remeides will lead to violations of law
* civil society will continue its erosion
* rule of jungle will hold sway
hence my seemingly incessant hammerings at the occupying army
...it must go...it must go!...
-only then can pakistanis really hope to embark on the long and arduous rebuilding
-only then can intolerance be replaced by accomodation
-only then can a ray of hope can shine
-only then can national institutions reaffirm and offer hope for the minorities, the downtrodden, the disenfranchised, the women
-only then can (we) pakistanis begin to crawl back and be a good neighbour, a good corporate and world citizen
hope you and others
now understand the perpetuating harms of the occupying army
****#81 by ana
Re: # 64
the problem i have with every and any ill being blamed on the occupying army is precisely that every and any ill cannot be blamed solely on the occupying army.
i respect your input
and miriam ... i could have added this ps: in # 82 also...fickle memory;)...khair...
"...in its hunger to grab a bigger share of power they would not hesitate to make a pact with the saint, the devil, the pariah or the powerful...and we have seen this in the past 57/ 58 years...they bring out mqm when it suits them, have pacts with mullahs when it is in their interest..."
now specifically to the point ana addressed...
india is not a glorified example of minorities right...not by far and not yet!...however...when we compare india to pakistan...it is far ahead of pakistan...(yes i will get a flack for saying this from the usual suspects...but this is the truth....despite gujrat, kashmir, christians being burned alive...forget that preacher`s name...sloan?...and all the provocation by their rss mullahs)...
imho since the divide they (indians) have developed (and are developing) strong basic institutions...because of these khaki meddling in civilian affairs the divide and suspicion across all line...class, religion, caste...whatever...is exploited to the fullest...christians, hindus, ahmedis, barelvis, deobandis, sunnis shias...everybody falls victim to this divide and rule mentality ...link this with no credible institutions... the egalitarian aspects of a society are not allowed to build up...the khakhis both inculcate and exploit intolerance to the hilt...(yes, back to k(h)akisatocracy)...which is why in my humble opinion....:)
(05/06/04 )occupying army
...give me any problem in pakistan and i will give you a two word answeroccupying army
...try me :)
to blame the feudals only is beating the dead camel while pretending it is alive
over on the sajil board (incest and underage ward`s sexual abuse) romair was gingerly heading in the right direction when he mentioned that and other related issues from the perch of law and order
* the occupying army
is the root of all evil in pakistan
* the occupying army
is the current God, Mohammed and the Caliphs all rolled into one...ok Ram, Guru Nanak, Krishna, Budda...Jesus...did i miss anyone?...insert your favourite diety here....
* the occupying army
...ok enough...some of you are irritated by repeated mention of it...so won't mention it again in this thread...but on the odd chance that some new readers are not sure where i am coming from...( the other query...where am going is also speculative at best) i will explain:
on the eight day....biblical reference for the unbelievers;)...He pointed at the faujis and said...you manage
...as the world knows by now, they have made a holy mess of it!...enough is enough say foes and friends alike...send them back to barracks under full civilian control like happens in most civilized countries…(certain politicians in the beltway who have a penchant for talking about democracy but
dealing with autocrats, k(h)akistocrats, ailing oligarchs, monarchs, and small time tin-pots excepted)
ok, back to why i think they are the root of all evil in Pakistan ...as long as they are remotely close to power:
* they will not let any national institutions flourish
* there will be no independent judiciary
* there will be no independent civil service
* there will be no accountability – external or internal
* nobody will be answerable to the public
* no orderly political institutions would evolve
* jungle raj will prevail under army raj
...i have to mention india...sorry if it gets anybody`s goat...both countries got their independence at the same time...while we may argue if it is more democratic or less when compared to other countries...nobody can deny that is largely a democratic set-up with functioning institutions...where the ordinary citizens exercise power to throw out their state or national governments every so many years...while there is rampant corruption...the big difference is when push comes to shove the ordinary citizen is heard...it may take longer for him to be heard...but he is heard...compared to Pakistan...everyone feels there is more law and order there...briefly...they are stumbling toward the ideal goal...life, liberty, freedom, pursuit of happiness, freedom from persecution...
pakistan is regressing...the faujis are forever looking to increase their share of the pie...in their zeal they have overthrown common sense...they forget that if there is no country there won`t be an army...they are a law unto themselves...there is no law for the ordinary citizens...
…this needs to be looked at more closely…
…on books pakistan has all the laws it needs to exist as a civil society…mostly good...some bad ones…the people…or the judiciary is not empowered and independent enough to knock down the bad ones...the legislature is cowed and manipulated...(remember saima sarwar imran?...) ...when justice is denied what do you think ordinary citizen can do>...the options are to take law into their own hands...or to approach the dons in their turf for remedial justice...the bugtis, the mqm etc. often provide justice by default to the ordinary citizens...
...and this is with the full blessings of the army raj
...( i promised you i won`t use that phrase in this post)...along with these petty warlords the army also uses mafia to rule...
..if you want I can develop this even more...but i better end this here...the army has to go back to the barracks under full civilian control...and let the civilians resume their long trial and run for a viable political system beneficial for the populace without army interference